Tsumego 3
So, here it is. This is the situation where I found myself yesterday, playing as black. This time I could manage to live, but lost the game anyway.
Black to live - Easy
Wednesday, January 24, 2007
Black to live - Easy
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15 comments:
T16?
And the continuation? Assume black plays S16... How would it continue then?
B T16, W S16, B T18 ( menacing to join this stone and T16 one), W T17(killing the stone). Now white have one eye and 2 liberties, so B Q17 ^^
RallanT ( 19kyu on Dragon Go Server)
Comming from Spain
PS: Pretty good blog, Alejo
Thank you!
I'm glad you like it ;) Moreover if you are comming from Spain ;)
I'm thinking about publishing a game commented in Spanish, but still on the "list of things to do" phase...
I hope to see you again over here ;)
I'm alejo at kgs, if you ever happen to find me there, ask me for a game...
I enter Kgs a couple of times on a year, only, since I am working as J2EE Web programmer, so I have no time to play real time games. It is something sad, but unavoidable.
Thank you for your comments, I added your blog to my Firefox Favourites^^
I have a web on internet too: www.lavilladelosfrikis.com ( manga, role-playing-games, video-games, japanesse culture), where I tryed to bring up a go section, but I had no time for it ( I am the webmaster and one of the administrators). I tryed to bring a moderator but he went to China... So it seems a not loved section, hehe
after black T18 white just P18 - black's in atari and utterly dead. instead, black Q17 would enforce to join, then T18 kills. therefore i believe white S16 is a fatal mistake.
if i were white, after T16 i'd play T18. if black takes 2stones white lives with S19 [miai of Q19 and T17], and black still is in quite bad position. if black S19, white connects S16. because of Q19 black is one liberty short
[few paths here:
b S13 - w P18;
b Q17 - w T17 -> b S13 w P18; b q19 w P19/S13].
better analyse your problems before posting them.
Sorry 12k, but I already did my homework and analised the whole problem.
This is the sollution I found (we'll discuss your way just afterwards):
Bt16, Ws16, Bq17, Wt17, Bt18, Ws13, Bt16 and white dies.
You said "after Bt18, white p18 and black dies", that's incorrect, black has the turn, so black can kill the whole white group by playing at t16.
"after Bt16, I'd do Wt18"... sorry, but black connects at s19, white ataris at p18, black kills 2 white stones at s16 and the next moves lead to black killing white.
"i'd do Wt18 after black t16" Then black kills the 2 stones at s16, white kills at s19, black q19, white p18, black q17,white p19, black s15, and white needs to defend at t17, so black is enabled to escape through s13.
Don't really understand what you mean on the "few paths" sequences... I see the coordinates, but I wonder the "when"
I don't consider myself to be specially bad at tsumego when I'm into it and my current rating is about 9-10k, and, yes, I do my homework before posting the tsumegos.
first the path of juan luis [which you have accepted due to posting of a next problem] (and note that's quite different from what you posted in your last comment):
b T16, w S16, b T18, w T17
as i have written after t18 white should play p18 - which puts black in atari [and white still has two liberties]. in a solution "you've found", probably in my first comment, this of course does not apply - yet it still takes for granted white's mistake. bad attitude to play with, imo.
and over again, in your analyse of my solutions you expect white to play bad. simplified paths with commentary, so that you can understand it better [or if it's too hard, just get your goban and replay it]
b T16 - w T18 - b S19 - w S16:
black can't play T19 - would be self-atari. that applies even if he makes Q17-T17 exchange. because two of his surrounding groups have only two liberties each, he is one liberty short [approaching move of Q19 gives white one additional "liberty"].
b T16 - w T18 - b S16 - w S19:
white lives in the corner [miai Q19-T17], black is still weak [by playing S15 white makes this eye false, in sente]. yet can't find anything better for him - as for me, i'd probably tenuki all the situation.
and mind you, it's only doubling of my earlier post - if you like, read it again, carefully.
if you're a real 12-10k i'd love to play you on 2 or 3 strones :P.
you know, it's only human to make mistakes. the art is to know when to admit it.
i just found i've probably written
> if you're a real 12-10k
of course meant 10k-9k, sorry
this "Your comment has been saved and will be visible after blog owner approval" is really nasty, :?.
b T16, w S16, b T18, w p18
Yes, definitelly, I misread it...
I agree with you totally.
But I disagree on this one:
b T16 - w T18 - b S19 - w S16.
Black should not defent at s19, he should kill the 2 stones playing at s16. Now you are assuming black plays bad moves. lol
In the end, white lives small in the corner and black scapes trough s13
b T16 - w T18 - b S16 - w S19
Well, that's what I was saying... And, yes, it's a false eye, and black must be careful about the next moves and might possibly die...
Currently I'm 9k on KGS, though I haven't played for a long time... so I sincerely believe I'm somewhat weaker than a 9k (somewhere between 9k and 14k). Did you try to do the "go-test"? There is a link over here. Try doing it in 10 minutes (30 secs per question) and let me know your result ;D
"Your comment has been saved and will be visible after blog owner approval"
I know it's nasty, but it is necessary. The problem is that if I didn't do this, I'd receive tons of spam as comments and would have to delete them manually...
> Now you are assuming black plays bad moves. lol
oh really? :P. i have just given two possible variations, clearly stating which is a little better for black. what's more - taking into consideration simultaneously ongoing attack on black, i wouldn't say that white living (in sente!) in corner is 'small. and remember it was:
> "Black to live - Easy"
about Dinerchtein's test - for the time being i did it twice, once when it was given in Goama, second time a week later. i got 3k and 2k. yet a friend of mine, official 3k, got 9k. really strange.
It was "Black to live - Easy" since two dan players, who were looking at the game, agreed with me at the solution I showed...
I accept that a deeper reading shows that whites moves are suboptimal...I guess there is a problem with self-made tsumego...
dan players? after such a thing i'd be quite sceptical 'bout that ;-).
and, you know, all tsumego are self-made. some just by really strong players :-D.
One of them was 3d and the other is a lower one (I don't really know his level, but he was a dan player for sure).
The point is that they only wasted a few seconds on the tsumego, so maybe they didn't read out all possibilities. Or maybe they did but found another solution for white playing at t18...
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